1 00:00:02,990 --> 00:00:09,330 [Music] 2 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,320 I 3 00:00:35,559 --> 00:00:40,520 welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world 4 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:42,600 with me George Gallow and me gatri I 5 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,840 spent some of the best years of my life 6 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:47,120 in Nicaragua during the original 7 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:49,480 revolutionary government of the 8 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:52,760 sandinistas after the overthrow of the 9 00:00:49,480 --> 00:00:55,440 Samosa dictatorship the fsln set about 10 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:57,760 transforming the impoverished Central 11 00:00:55,440 --> 00:01:00,079 American country in ways which made it 12 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:02,359 beloved of all Progressive people 13 00:01:00,079 --> 00:01:05,000 throughout the world the US government 14 00:01:02,359 --> 00:01:08,159 of Ronald Reagan and with George Bush 15 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:11,320 Senior John negro Ponte Colonel oliv 16 00:01:08,159 --> 00:01:14,080 North and a cast of right-wing crazies 17 00:01:11,320 --> 00:01:16,479 set about a terrorist campaign against 18 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:19,920 Nicaragua similar to the one in Syria 19 00:01:16,479 --> 00:01:22,600 today the world Court condemned the US 20 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:24,680 for terrorist acts but that didn't stop 21 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:27,000 them eventually the sandanista 22 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:29,920 government was brought down and most of 23 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:32,920 what they achieved destroyed it was bu 24 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:36,640 business as usual that seemed to be the 25 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:39,960 end of that but From the Ashes of defeat 26 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:43,040 the sandanista leader Daniel Ortega rose 27 00:01:39,960 --> 00:01:46,119 again and he celebrates 10 years in 28 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:48,920 power since being reelected on November 29 00:01:46,119 --> 00:01:51,680 5th an auspicious date 30 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:53,600 2006 to Mark the occasion we are 31 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:56,520 delighted to welcome Nicaraguan 32 00:01:53,600 --> 00:02:00,039 ambassador to Britain Her Excellency 33 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:02,240 Gizelle Morales aavi your Excellency 34 00:02:00,039 --> 00:02:05,320 thanks for uh joining us and 35 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:07,240 congratulations on the uh 10th 36 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:09,720 anniversary what are the main 37 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:11,760 differences between the sandinistas when 38 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:14,959 I knew them and loved them and the 39 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:18,200 sandinistas in power now today uh thank 40 00:02:14,959 --> 00:02:19,360 you George for inviting us and and be 41 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:23,160 part of this 42 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:26,720 celebration and um H to your answer I 43 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:31,040 will say there is no difference you know 44 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:34,640 why because the same most of the people 45 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:37,120 that fought in h for the Sandinista was 46 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:40,239 part of the Sandinista first time of the 47 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:44,640 revolution is still there the revolution 48 00:02:40,239 --> 00:02:48,560 hasn't stop we just wait wasn't waiting 49 00:02:44,640 --> 00:02:51,280 for 15 years but the revolution continue 50 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:54,000 and the revolution is still there now so 51 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:57,319 so it's not like labor and new labor 52 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:59,599 it's not new sista with a different uh 53 00:02:57,319 --> 00:03:04,280 approach altogether not at all it's the 54 00:02:59,599 --> 00:03:07,360 same Sandinista we have the same uh 55 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:12,440 principles we we still believe in the 56 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:16,959 sandino uh um ideals and we still 57 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:19,280 believe that people is first so that is 58 00:03:16,959 --> 00:03:21,840 the main thing of what happened in the 59 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:24,080 first time of the Sandinista people was 60 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:26,920 the first important thing in the in the 61 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:29,480 revolution and is happening now too and 62 00:03:26,920 --> 00:03:33,560 what about the emnity of the United 63 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:36,120 States I was there when the Contra 64 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:39,159 funded and armed by the United States 65 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:43,080 were literally cutting people's throats 66 00:03:39,159 --> 00:03:45,920 and leaving their tongues like neck ties 67 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:48,439 teachers were targeted health workers 68 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:50,480 were targeted literacy workers were 69 00:03:48,439 --> 00:03:54,400 targeted the United States did 70 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:57,599 everything it could to destroy the great 71 00:03:54,400 --> 00:04:00,840 achievements of uh president Ortega's 72 00:03:57,599 --> 00:04:05,120 first term in power 73 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:09,280 has the US gone uh a little bit soft on 74 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:10,920 the Nicaraguan process uh I think they 75 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,239 have been 76 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:16,320 realistic they have been realistic in 77 00:04:13,239 --> 00:04:18,479 terms of uh that this government this 78 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:21,120 new Sandinista government has the back 79 00:04:18,479 --> 00:04:23,080 of the people the people is backing so 80 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:26,000 there is different 81 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:30,120 internationally the in in in in the 82 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:32,880 region H has much happened in terms of 83 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:35,080 governments leftwing governments and 84 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:38,080 socialist government who has come to 85 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:42,320 power uh Latin America is not the same 86 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:44,680 Latin America than the 80s so they are 87 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:46,680 being practical and they are been we 88 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:50,120 have been working with America in many 89 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:54,320 in many in many areas they still are the 90 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:58,360 first uh uh our first bugers our First 91 00:04:54,320 --> 00:05:03,039 Investors and and I think they they but 92 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:08,639 but not we have not to be uh let's 93 00:05:03,039 --> 00:05:10,840 say clouded by by this uh this good uh 94 00:05:08,639 --> 00:05:15,919 we'll say good 95 00:05:10,840 --> 00:05:21,319 relations and but uh because lately we 96 00:05:15,919 --> 00:05:27,120 have uh the it has been approved by the 97 00:05:21,319 --> 00:05:31,800 um Congress Anika act which is about to 98 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:36,160 to ask the government US government to 99 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:37,400 stop the funding uh from International 100 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:41,360 Financial 101 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:47,919 organizations uh loans to Nicaragua if 102 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:51,759 they believe the H elections now are um 103 00:05:47,919 --> 00:05:53,840 not not their like of their liking of 104 00:05:51,759 --> 00:05:56,759 their liking that's that's what that's 105 00:05:53,840 --> 00:06:00,400 the best one they they are they they be 106 00:05:56,759 --> 00:06:03,560 they are not stopping they are just 107 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:05,600 moving in different forms and of course 108 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:08,560 as you say it's not the Latin America of 109 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:11,000 the 1980s but it may be heading back 110 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:13,919 that way there have been many setbacks 111 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:16,800 for the left in Latin America just in 112 00:06:13,919 --> 00:06:21,039 the last couple of years yes indeed we 113 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:24,400 have different movements we have um they 114 00:06:21,039 --> 00:06:28,479 don't use anymore the the the CPS 115 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:31,919 military coups but now they use the the 116 00:06:28,479 --> 00:06:34,919 national assemblies to do the cup and 117 00:06:31,919 --> 00:06:37,800 and and and we have to be realistic that 118 00:06:34,919 --> 00:06:40,000 we live in a different moment and the 119 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:43,039 people has the power to change for 120 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:46,319 changes so if the people believe this is 121 00:06:43,039 --> 00:06:50,440 the way we should go I think the left 122 00:06:46,319 --> 00:06:54,680 has been uh in Latin America has been uh 123 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:57,240 respecting that uh that decision and and 124 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:59,840 we need to work in a different way and 125 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:04,039 find our ways back to the people to the 126 00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:07,319 people keep electing uh a governments 127 00:07:04,039 --> 00:07:11,319 that will fight and and will put them 128 00:07:07,319 --> 00:07:14,120 first there are not many figures like uh 129 00:07:11,319 --> 00:07:17,240 president Ortega whom I knew in the 130 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:19,360 1980s who are still strong and 131 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:22,840 determined in 132 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:26,400 2016 what's the secret of his uh 133 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:30,440 longevity so I can have a drink of it or 134 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:35,759 or eat it I I think uh that his good 135 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:39,240 health is because he he is he do a lot 136 00:07:35,759 --> 00:07:42,039 of uh exercise he believes in he runs 137 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:46,360 every day of his life he runs every 138 00:07:42,039 --> 00:07:51,039 morning don't tell don't tell day um the 139 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:55,400 I think he he he also has a wife who is 140 00:07:51,039 --> 00:07:57,159 very much into the uh good uh food well 141 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,639 I want to ask you about the wife cuz 142 00:07:57,159 --> 00:08:01,720 obviously we present the show together 143 00:07:59,639 --> 00:08:03,840 we work together as husband and wife and 144 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,919 he and his wife president's wife has 145 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,240 been with him with the revolution from 146 00:08:05,919 --> 00:08:08,639 the beginning they've been working 147 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:11,000 together from the beginning could you 148 00:08:08,639 --> 00:08:14,440 tell us more about her well it was even 149 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:17,919 before the Revolution win in then in the 150 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:20,919 ER Rosario Muro has been member of the 151 00:08:17,919 --> 00:08:23,759 supported and and Guerilla fighter since 152 00:08:20,919 --> 00:08:27,560 the early ER 153 00:08:23,759 --> 00:08:30,039 70s H so she has been in the Sandinista 154 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:33,399 party and the Sandinista movement 155 00:08:30,039 --> 00:08:36,159 long ago and she made her names not 156 00:08:33,399 --> 00:08:41,080 because of the wife of of Danielle but 157 00:08:36,159 --> 00:08:43,719 because her own uh Merit the uh 158 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:47,120 achievements in the field of women's 159 00:08:43,719 --> 00:08:49,800 rights for Nicaragua have always been 160 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:54,000 part of your main uh attraction and 161 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:56,760 appeal to people I saw some figures uh 162 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:59,640 uh from you uh 163 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:04,120 showing that you're actually on the the 164 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:06,440 World level you are ah ahead uh on some 165 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:09,160 of these achievements the gender gap uh 166 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:12,040 figures tell us about those well as you 167 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:15,399 mentioned since the beginning woman even 168 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:19,440 before women were leading the Sandinista 169 00:09:15,399 --> 00:09:22,560 fight in the guillas time uh and after 170 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:26,000 that we have Minister lead 171 00:09:22,560 --> 00:09:28,680 leading health for example International 172 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:32,640 Affairs we had ministers in all all all 173 00:09:28,680 --> 00:09:34,920 of that and in this time in this new uh 174 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:37,680 government Sandinista government that's 175 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:42,440 one one of the thing that we wanted to 176 00:09:37,680 --> 00:09:45,399 keep working on and the to keep the to 177 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:48,640 close the gender gap that was created 178 00:09:45,399 --> 00:09:54,279 during 17 years of neoliberalism so what 179 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:57,399 we did is uh in 2009 with um 10 sorry uh 180 00:09:54,279 --> 00:10:00,839 there was a law that goes 50/50 and it 181 00:09:57,399 --> 00:10:04,480 was a law of equity uh gender uh to 182 00:10:00,839 --> 00:10:08,880 close the gender gap and um so from now 183 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:12,680 from that loan every government body 184 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:15,360 body should have if the minister is a 185 00:10:12,680 --> 00:10:18,399 woman the man is the vice minister or 186 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:21,640 the deputy and the same so we are equal 187 00:10:18,399 --> 00:10:24,959 on that and on position of Direction 188 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:28,200 there is always a woman and Co working 189 00:10:24,959 --> 00:10:29,839 together and and in the elections all 190 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:33,160 the parties who goes 191 00:10:29,839 --> 00:10:36,200 to H to participate in an election they 192 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:39,320 need to have uh candidates half has to 193 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:42,120 be woman has to be has half has to be 194 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:46,240 men that's a remarkable unbelievable and 195 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:48,079 so that has taken us from being number 196 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:52,240 12 I think in 197 00:10:48,079 --> 00:10:54,959 2014 to number 10 now and gender gap in 198 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:58,480 the war and in the overall measure of 199 00:10:54,959 --> 00:11:01,839 Gender Gap Index um but the most 200 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:04,959 striking is the political attainment 201 00:11:01,839 --> 00:11:07,800 which is n we are number four in the war 202 00:11:04,959 --> 00:11:11,399 and we have achieved we have close the 203 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:13,639 gender gap in education and health and 204 00:11:11,399 --> 00:11:15,760 that is a reflection of what the 205 00:11:13,639 --> 00:11:19,720 government has been doing in those 206 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:23,279 social are areas let me get this right 207 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:25,000 you are number four in the whole world 208 00:11:23,279 --> 00:11:27,480 for women's 209 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:29,880 empowerment e political Empower 210 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,240 empowerment political empower 211 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:34,240 I don't want to embarrass you but where 212 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:37,040 does Britain come in in these uh in this 213 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:39,399 table well I I I'm not the one who will 214 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:43,600 be embarrassing is the gender cap index 215 00:11:39,399 --> 00:11:45,760 and it's 24 so Britain is 24 despite 216 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:48,880 having a woman head of state and a woman 217 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:51,720 prime minister and you are number four 218 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:56,200 this is a remarkable achievement 219 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:59,680 congratulations also uh on that uh we 220 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:02,639 don't have uh much more time but but how 221 00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:05,440 much more time do you think Danielle 222 00:12:02,639 --> 00:12:09,200 will put in as uh president is there any 223 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:12,160 talk of retirement or is he going on 224 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:14,519 well he has to finish uh if he is 225 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:17,880 elected he has to finish his Mandate of 226 00:12:14,519 --> 00:12:20,680 course and then we need the Sandinista 227 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:23,560 party needs to decide that we have a 228 00:12:20,680 --> 00:12:25,880 council in the Sandinista party uh who 229 00:12:23,560 --> 00:12:28,480 are members are elected to become part 230 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:30,440 of it so it's a it's a it's a very 231 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:34,120 democratic process that goes on 232 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:37,240 internally in the party so he will be 233 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:40,040 really if he if if the San does 234 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:42,639 membership believes he needs to go on 235 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:45,240 and he has the health and he has the has 236 00:12:42,639 --> 00:12:47,880 done the good job we believe we all be 237 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:50,079 working on I hope he keeps on running 238 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:52,720 myself your Excellency thank you for 239 00:12:50,079 --> 00:12:56,000 joining us on board the Sputnik thank 240 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:58,839 you to you coming up next the political 241 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:01,399 cartoonist pen sharper than any sword 242 00:12:58,839 --> 00:13:01,399 don't miss 243 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:06,639 [Music] 244 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:09,120 it welcome back to Sputnik as you 245 00:13:06,639 --> 00:13:11,880 already know I'm a firm believer that if 246 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:14,399 the pen is mightier than the sword then 247 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:17,360 the cartoonist pen is the sharpest of 248 00:13:14,399 --> 00:13:20,040 the lot Dr Timothy Benson is one of the 249 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:22,160 sharpest tool in that particular box he 250 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:25,000 is Britain's leading Authority on 251 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:27,360 political cartoons and has just released 252 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:29,839 his book Britain's best political 253 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:32,360 cartoons and he has his own cartoon 254 00:13:29,839 --> 00:13:35,519 Gallery in Putney in London which should 255 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:38,920 be on every London visitor's list of 256 00:13:35,519 --> 00:13:41,360 boxes to take Dr Benson joins us now 257 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:43,240 congratulations on the book is this the 258 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:46,399 fourth this is the fourth one in the 259 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:48,279 series it is uh a remarkable uh piece of 260 00:13:46,399 --> 00:13:50,680 work I've got the previous three I'm 261 00:13:48,279 --> 00:13:54,600 hoping you're going to leave me that one 262 00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:57,320 a signed copy of that one um it is 263 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:59,560 undoubtedly true that if you can get 264 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:02,320 people laughing at your political 265 00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:05,199 opponents it's much more effective than 266 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,800 merely throwing brick bats at them and 267 00:14:05,199 --> 00:14:09,759 indeed we were discussing there's that 268 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:12,240 famous quote from the spitting image 269 00:14:09,759 --> 00:14:16,440 people that if a politician ever asks 270 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:17,600 for his dummy then he's failed what's 271 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:21,040 the 272 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:23,120 historical uh impact of cartoons in your 273 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:25,120 view how long has this been going on and 274 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:27,199 is it a very British thing how long have 275 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:29,959 you got mhm I mean England has an 276 00:14:27,199 --> 00:14:31,959 unrivaled Heritage in cartoons 277 00:14:29,959 --> 00:14:33,800 we don't we don't lead the world in much 278 00:14:31,959 --> 00:14:35,519 these days but when it comes to 279 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:38,000 political cartoons we've always had the 280 00:14:35,519 --> 00:14:41,279 best cartoon and interesting what you 281 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:43,000 said about making fun of politicians um 282 00:14:41,279 --> 00:14:45,320 if you look at the great David low who's 283 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,560 the father the daddy of them all um he's 284 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:49,160 famous for ridiculing Hitler and 285 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:52,199 musolini in the 1930s and 40s and he 286 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:55,360 created Colonel blimp and the TU C cart 287 00:14:52,199 --> 00:14:57,920 horse and he said about Hitler and other 288 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:59,920 dictators you want them they want to be 289 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,800 portrayed as monsters they want people 290 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:04,079 to fear them but if you portray them as 291 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:06,120 fools they hate it and in fact Hitler 292 00:15:04,079 --> 00:15:07,959 tried to censor Lowe's material he put 293 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,839 pressure on the foreign office to get 294 00:15:07,959 --> 00:15:12,800 him to tone down his work that was an 295 00:15:09,839 --> 00:15:17,320 early example of course uh David Cameron 296 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:19,600 and uh and uh Tony Blair perhaps Blair 297 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:21,880 in particular and perhaps Steve Bell in 298 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:24,399 particular he's my favorite I must tell 299 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:27,519 you I'm a great admirer and and he 300 00:15:24,399 --> 00:15:32,319 features a lot in our new film on Blair 301 00:15:27,519 --> 00:15:35,079 how he drew Blair over the years 302 00:15:32,319 --> 00:15:40,160 metamorphosing into Thatcher with the 303 00:15:35,079 --> 00:15:42,079 one staring uh eye is is pure genius uh 304 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,959 in my opinion do you think Blair was 305 00:15:42,079 --> 00:15:46,319 particularly well 306 00:15:43,959 --> 00:15:48,079 caricatured I think he it was difficult 307 00:15:46,319 --> 00:15:49,759 it's difficult to get young politicians 308 00:15:48,079 --> 00:15:51,560 to caricature them properly especially 309 00:15:49,759 --> 00:15:52,680 you know now we have women politicians 310 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,920 but luckily they're much older when 311 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:56,360 they're young they're they're not cracky 312 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:59,600 their Fe you know their noses haven't 313 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:01,759 grown they haven't got the uh the es and 314 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:03,920 the lines and so it takes time and also 315 00:16:01,759 --> 00:16:05,639 they don't have the tags of identity you 316 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,600 know Churchill had the cigar they played 317 00:16:05,639 --> 00:16:09,839 up to the 318 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:11,519 cartoonist and um the thing with Blair I 319 00:16:09,839 --> 00:16:13,360 always thought it was it was sort of 320 00:16:11,519 --> 00:16:15,519 cartoons and S of things were beneath 321 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,160 him and that he wasn't bothered them but 322 00:16:15,519 --> 00:16:19,240 I bumped into Nick Brown a couple of 323 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,160 years ago and he told me that Blair was 324 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:23,480 incredibly Vain and hated being 325 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:26,160 portrayed especially with a a receding 326 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:28,319 hairline that really got to himed that 327 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:30,240 really got to him yeah John Major of 328 00:16:28,319 --> 00:16:32,680 course was another one well John Major 329 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:36,160 was brutally caricatured again 330 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:38,560 especially by Steve as uh effectively a 331 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:41,360 man who tucked his shirt into his 332 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:46,000 underpants which were in any case a very 333 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:49,440 unflattering baggy gray a pair of WS and 334 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:51,680 in the end John Major was his underpants 335 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,560 yes indeed and in fact major said when 336 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:55,120 when somebody mentioned the cartoons to 337 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,360 him about being depicted that way he 338 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,680 said these things are done to 339 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:02,160 destabilize me so I was discussing with 340 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:04,959 my friends my Dutch friends recently how 341 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:06,520 iconic British humor really is it has 342 00:17:04,959 --> 00:17:08,559 this particular you can't describe it 343 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:10,480 and it's just I grew up with it I loved 344 00:17:08,559 --> 00:17:12,679 it and yesterday we were watching Only 345 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,480 Fools and hores again and instantly you 346 00:17:12,679 --> 00:17:17,360 get that British humor and you think 347 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:19,400 that's the same in a cartoon world oh 348 00:17:17,360 --> 00:17:20,959 and I mean you know half probably 349 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,600 two-thirds of this book wouldn't be 350 00:17:20,959 --> 00:17:24,439 published in any other country CU 351 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:27,679 British cartoonists have far more 352 00:17:24,439 --> 00:17:29,400 freedom here to be as crude as they like 353 00:17:27,679 --> 00:17:32,120 I mean it's a very it's very much an 354 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:34,799 unfair art form it's a very reactionary 355 00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:36,520 art form because if it was the opposite 356 00:17:34,799 --> 00:17:39,120 if it promoted the politicians it would 357 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:41,440 then end up as propaganda yeah but this 358 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:44,080 you use the word earlier 359 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:47,480 destabilizing uh this makes the point I 360 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:50,960 made in my introduction that uh this is 361 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:52,039 much more damaging to a politician than 362 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:55,760 mere 363 00:17:52,039 --> 00:17:57,720 criticism because Mak people laugh at 364 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,360 Mrs Thatcher didn't have she didn't she 365 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:02,400 she didn't have a sense of humor 366 00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:04,240 no so it didn't bother her well you know 367 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:07,000 I sat in Parliament as you know for for 368 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:09,280 almost 30 years and I I can tell you 369 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:13,280 that when the house was laughing at 370 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:15,360 someone it was infinitely more 371 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:18,440 destabilizing than if the house was 372 00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:20,679 shouting angrily at someone I've seen it 373 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,679 uh with my own eyes it's all about 374 00:18:20,679 --> 00:18:24,280 perception isn't it if you damage the 375 00:18:22,679 --> 00:18:27,400 perception it's like Ed millerand and 376 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:29,720 Neil kinck once you make them look unpre 377 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:32,240 ministerial so to speak 378 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,880 that that's very damaging cuz people 379 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,840 I've got a quote in the book cuz I've 380 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,320 I've been um I've been looking at 381 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,080 American elections and British 382 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:41,720 cartoonists and I've got a quote from a 383 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:43,840 cartoonist who says that David Cameron 384 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:46,320 is the type of guy you would get to play 385 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:48,480 a prime minister in a movie and it is 386 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:51,080 very much about perception and Ed was 387 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,679 never never appeared Prime ministerial 388 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:56,159 therefore 389 00:18:52,679 --> 00:18:59,280 probably Minister let's take a look at 390 00:18:56,159 --> 00:19:01,720 of take a look at some of the 391 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:05,799 stuff from the book this of 392 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:08,520 course a pasti on the Saddam statue 393 00:19:05,799 --> 00:19:10,960 being pulled down there's Blair 394 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:14,039 unmistakable uh being pulled down by 395 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:17,120 chilcott not quite true as it turned out 396 00:19:14,039 --> 00:19:20,240 because chilcott's 2 million words uh 397 00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:22,280 were largely ignored in the in the end 398 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:27,360 and you could say that Blair was already 399 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:29,640 down before chilot uh uh was pulling him 400 00:19:27,360 --> 00:19:32,240 down I mean he great cartoonists they 401 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:34,400 conflate two two ideas don't they they 402 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:37,320 take two things they put them into one 403 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:39,120 and it's um you know this one ad 404 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,960 Christian Adams from The Daily Telegraph 405 00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:44,159 oh yeah the telegraph gives a lot of 406 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:46,799 space to do and they they actually gives 407 00:19:44,159 --> 00:19:49,840 um Christian a lot of lot of freedom to 408 00:19:46,799 --> 00:19:51,640 attack to attack everyone surprisingly 409 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:54,080 um interestingly Steve Spell's cartoon 410 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,919 on the chill cot inquiry was refused 411 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,440 publication did not appear in the 412 00:19:55,919 --> 00:19:59,159 guardian oh I didn't know that because 413 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,760 it had Blair C 414 00:19:59,159 --> 00:20:04,159 it's not in the book um cuz I chose that 415 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:07,039 one but um it was one Blair sitting at a 416 00:20:04,159 --> 00:20:10,159 desk the chill cot inquiry on the side 417 00:20:07,039 --> 00:20:12,960 and a revolver on the table so the 418 00:20:10,159 --> 00:20:15,400 implication rejected on grounds of taste 419 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:17,760 yes it's always taste yeah always let's 420 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:20,280 have a look at some of the uh others 421 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:22,760 this one is particularly brilliant yes 422 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,919 this is Michael go thinking he's 423 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:27,720 stabbing Boris Johnson in the back but 424 00:20:24,919 --> 00:20:30,280 of course it goes right through and uh 425 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:32,559 and stabs I mean all cartoons in essence 426 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:34,760 are visual metaphors they not and the 427 00:20:32,559 --> 00:20:36,720 best ones are those without any speech 428 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,960 bubbles or captions I mean that that 429 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:41,360 says everything that's just absolutely 430 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:44,960 brilliant and of course uh Johnson 431 00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:48,240 survived and and go didn't uh Johnson's 432 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:51,159 now the foreign secretary for now at the 433 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:53,120 time of uh publication a very good one 434 00:20:51,159 --> 00:20:54,559 who did this one this is Peter Brooks of 435 00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:56,679 the times is probably our greatest 436 00:20:54,559 --> 00:20:58,200 living cartoonist you think so I think 437 00:20:56,679 --> 00:21:01,400 him and Steve are the two big guns of 438 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:04,559 British yeah yeah I'll grant you that 439 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:06,320 I'm just not a fan of the times so I but 440 00:21:04,559 --> 00:21:08,720 Peter gives no quarter to the the 441 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:10,320 government and you know he gives the 442 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,840 opposition as hard a time as he does the 443 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:15,480 government but he now what about a 444 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:17,960 politician that's beyond caricature 445 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:20,440 Donald Trump Donald Trump yes Beyond sat 446 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:23,919 oh you've got one ah this is Adams again 447 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:26,400 the right to bear arms he's of course a 448 00:21:23,919 --> 00:21:29,919 big Pro Gun Man or at least is now 449 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:31,880 pretending to be uh be a lot of things 450 00:21:29,919 --> 00:21:34,080 he's blasting himself through the 451 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:36,240 through the foot yeah visual metor yeah 452 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:39,039 visual metaphor but then again he's 453 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:41,679 marching on isn't he and isn't that the 454 00:21:39,039 --> 00:21:44,200 point about Trump the point yeah that 455 00:21:41,679 --> 00:21:47,520 that any other politician would have 456 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:49,200 done he'd be dead by now he shot himself 457 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,799 so many times you got Sarah Palin to 458 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,960 endorse him six months ago that would be 459 00:21:50,799 --> 00:21:55,720 the end for everyone else but for him he 460 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:57,440 can say anything and do anything he can 461 00:21:55,720 --> 00:22:00,400 insult the dis he can just it's never 462 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:03,760 gone out of fashion you mentioned L uh 463 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:06,360 who famously as you say uh portrayed the 464 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:11,159 TU Trade union Congress for younger 465 00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:16,039 viewers as a as a as a a c horse the UNS 466 00:22:11,159 --> 00:22:18,919 uh and uh Ernie Bavon as a horny handed 467 00:22:16,039 --> 00:22:21,039 powerful uh forearms which of course he 468 00:22:18,919 --> 00:22:22,320 got rid of George Lansbury just yes he 469 00:22:21,039 --> 00:22:24,720 throttled 470 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:28,960 himy 471 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:32,000 bewhere obviously the incident when 472 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:35,240 that you know yeah yeah too far left uh 473 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:37,480 but uh the the so going right back now 474 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:42,720 to well of course it goes back centuries 475 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:46,600 but but there's in the 30s uh Bon the TU 476 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:49,559 um Churchill in the 40s it's not gone 477 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:51,720 out of fashion has it only that 478 00:22:49,559 --> 00:22:53,760 newspaper circulations are declining 479 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:57,520 yeah because of Technology a lot of 480 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:59,360 people get their news now on on tablets 481 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:02,080 and it's not the same 482 00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:03,880 translate to they don't and the cartoon 483 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,840 was King if you think in Lowe's time in 484 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:09,400 the 1930s there was no television radio 485 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:11,600 was in its infancy everyone got their 486 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,840 news through the newspaper and the 487 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:16,240 cartoonists were the celebrities of 488 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:19,960 their day Sydney struy worked for the 489 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:22,799 Daily Express was on £10,000 a year in 490 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:24,480 1931 wow now if you think could buy a 491 00:23:22,799 --> 00:23:26,880 house in London it's it's almost 492 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,159 impossible way more it's impossible 493 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,039 because you know the spending power was 494 00:23:28,159 --> 00:23:31,840 much 495 00:23:29,039 --> 00:23:34,880 those days that's fantastic but um so 496 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:37,039 what will happen then I mean I'm one who 497 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:39,400 will celebrate when the last editor is 498 00:23:37,039 --> 00:23:41,520 strangled by the last copy of the Daily 499 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,600 Express yeah sure uh what will happen 500 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,559 when there are no more news I don't know 501 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:48,080 it is as we know it's impossible to 502 00:23:45,559 --> 00:23:50,320 predict the future and it's especially 503 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:52,279 difficult to predict technology and the 504 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:54,240 way it goes I don't know the thing is 505 00:23:52,279 --> 00:23:56,480 online when you look at an online you 506 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:58,559 have to search out the cartoon whereas 507 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,720 in the newspaper you just come across it 508 00:23:58,559 --> 00:24:02,720 natur now the whole thing about the 509 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,440 newspaper cartoon it was it was there to 510 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,520 support the editorial L of the newspaper 511 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:09,120 originally and it was there to break up 512 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:11,320 the huge amount of text there was no 513 00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:13,679 photography well the good news is we've 514 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:16,080 got your four grps abely and we've got 515 00:24:13,679 --> 00:24:17,720 your gallery in Putney which I'm going 516 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,240 to bring my family look forward to 517 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:22,000 seeing you very very soon thanks for 518 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,000 joining us no 519 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,880 trouble and now it's your turn to tell 520 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:31,279 us what you think through the portals of 521 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:34,120 social media what's rling gri well 522 00:24:31,279 --> 00:24:36,360 Nicaragua celebrates 10 year 10 year of 523 00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:39,919 the sista movement or comeback really of 524 00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:42,279 Daniel Ortega and AD Cabello says great 525 00:24:39,919 --> 00:24:44,559 to see The Return of a true socialist 526 00:24:42,279 --> 00:24:47,559 revolutionary giant to Latin American 527 00:24:44,559 --> 00:24:50,000 politics will he be allowed to succeed 528 00:24:47,559 --> 00:24:52,919 though uh well of course there is no 529 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:55,279 path the path is made by walking and DGA 530 00:24:52,919 --> 00:24:58,440 has been walking since the 531 00:24:55,279 --> 00:25:02,240 1970s and his great achievement is to 532 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:05,559 come back from defeat and how um and 533 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:08,799 then the best political cartoons Simon 534 00:25:05,559 --> 00:25:11,520 Brian Anderson sent us the following 535 00:25:08,799 --> 00:25:13,360 picture it's very effective actually 536 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:17,039 we'll see what the outcome is we've got 537 00:25:13,360 --> 00:25:20,279 a special Sputnik on Wednesday from 538 00:25:17,039 --> 00:25:23,080 breakfast talking about the outcome of 539 00:25:20,279 --> 00:25:25,399 this epic battle for the presidency of 540 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:27,799 the United States that's all it tws say 541 00:25:25,399 --> 00:25:29,360 we have time for then which alas means 542 00:25:27,799 --> 00:25:31,320 that's the end end of the show you can 543 00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:35,000 stay in touch with us on social media 544 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:37,080 Twitter rtor Sputnik or Facebook Sputnik 545 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:40,000 on Russia today it's goodbye from me 546 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:43,200 gatri and from me George Gallow it's 547 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,200 been marvelous 548 00:25:46,610 --> 00:25:49,670 [Music]